THE LEO PROBE -- AUGUST FULL MOON 2001-12-04
Cosmic Logos Correspondence MDR BPL SDP
Bookmarking one of the 'questions' that it seems useful to resolve in the group mind.
Just what exactly is the relationship between Sirius and our Sun?
It seems we have two quite different points of view.
MDR - Our Sun forms a centre of the Sirian system which in it's own turn forms a centre in OAWNBUS
( see TCF 572 for example )
SDP - Our Sun forms a centre in OAWNBUS as does Sirius
( see TCF 512 for example )
BPL
See accompanying of dialogue between MDR & SDP
Ok my first point.
The discussion about how many Cosmic Logoi there are;
My take is this. There is One Big OAWNBUS - he is the Unknown Tcf 293 who expresses through seven cosmic Logoi - the same seven cosmic Logoi represented on the cosmic monadic plane ( chart on 344 )
All other references to lesser OAWNBUS are just that in the same way that logos or Heavenly Man is used for different levels.
As far as I can see, the only reason for Michael to assume another level of cosmic logos is this:
He believes that the mention of the seven rishis of the great bear on the cosmic buddhic plane refer to the actual stars of the Great Bear. I do not think this is a valid conclusion. The chart quite clearly states that a cosmic logoi contains seven solar logoi ( I do not think this is a blind for seven constellations ). It also quite clearly says that the seven rishis are centres in a solar Logos, not a constellation. So how can this be - the seven stars in the Gt bear being the seven centres in a Solar Logos.
Answer: Because they are not the seven stars. They are the seven rishis! The seven stars ( monadically considered are located in one of the rings on the cosmic monadic plane ) The seven stars ( causally considered are on the cosmic mental plane ) The seven stars ( physically considered ) are on the cosmic etheric planes.
The seven rishis are part of the conscious soul life of the stars. Their equivalent is the chain lords ( lesser Heavenly men ) to the Planetray Logoi ( Heavenly Men ). For example we call the Venus chain of the Earth Scheme - the Venus scheme ( read Rishi of Venus ) We do not ask - How can a planet be a centre in another planet? This is a direct correspondence and also relates to ashrams.
A chohan has his ashram upon the monadic plane but their are subsidiary ashrams on the buddhic plane. A heavenly man has centres on the monadic plane and lesser centres ( lesser Heavenly Men ) on the buddhic plane. Same/same.
So, if my analysis is correct, the SSSOWOIO actually does make up a centre in a cosmic logos. The suns at the centre of the seven systems are represented by triangles in the cosmic logoi circle. These triangles are not constellations - they are solar logoi as the chart says - and I agree with Michael that the triangle which is broken out is probably our sun, Sol - in the fourth circle.
The next question is whether or not our sun is part of the Sirian system. Despite references both ways my current take is No. The sirian system is part of another cosmic logoi and forms part of one of the other centres in OAWNBUS. Sirius forms part of one of the three major centres ( of which our sssowio is not one )
That there is a deep relationship between the two systems is quite clear.
Which leads me on to the second point I want to bring up. The relationship of Sirius to the ajna, heart and solar plexus is very similar in my view to Venus's relationship to these three centres.
The relationship between Sol ( system) and Sirius ( system )might be quite similar to the relationship between Earth and Venus.
I am not yet ready to get into debate about the centres which the planets form within the solar Logos because I think that there are several allocations. Possibly a planet could be allocated three different centres - one for the etheric, astral and mental planes. Earth could be similtaneously a base, solar plexus and throat chakra for instance.
I am going to explore just the relationship between earth and venus as if they were a higher and lower solar plexus point for a moment ( this is also an exploration I think you made Michael )
This exploration ties in the relationship between three planes or centres - the second, the fourth and the fifth.
We know that the causal body is the 'heart' of the monad ( the central point in the lower five planes of monadic expression ).
The monadic plane correlates numerically to the ajna centre and the mental plane to the solar plexus centre.
Venus is related to both. The way I see it is that venus represents a kind of solar systemic glamour meditation.
Venus is the light which 'falls' from the ajna centre ( monad correspondence )into the higher solar plexus centre ( causal body ).
There it gathers up the energy from the lower solar plexus centre ( mental unit ) and lifts it up to through the heart ( buddhic plane ) on the way back to the the monadic plane and then out through the head centre - the cosmic paths. ( This is meditation 1 & 2 )
Likewise Sirius can be seen as the ajna centre in the big guy, as well as the heart centre as well as the higher solar plexus centre. So how can this be?
I will need to create a chart but simply it results from the resolution of seven into three.
The monad is threefold expressing upon the three higher planes. The central plane ( monadic ) is the 'love' principle. On the seven planes there is a ninefold experience of consciousness - threefold monadic, threefold triadic and threefold personality. One could place Jupiter as the love principle within the monad - the big second ray - heart within the head. In which case Venus would be the representative of this Jupiterian 'love' principle in the five lower worlds ( the synthesiser of manas ). Venus therefore would relate to the triad as a whole ( heart of the threefold triple expression ) , the buddhic plane ( heart of the triad ) , the astral plane ( heart of the personality ) and the higher mental plane ( heart of the five planes ). Venus then is the active love principle at work in the five worlds - linking the hierachies on the planes through bringing manas - the linking intelligent principle developed by the five liberated hierarchies in the previous system.
Venus restores the human hierarchy ,man ( wrongfully identified with the astral plane ( mars ) ) through the pain of incarnation on earth to his true 'home' the buddhic plane ( mercury ). She then returns to her source - the monad and thence to her origin - the heart of the sun ( logoic causal body )
In a sense Venus is also the representative of the second great synthetic principle in the sevenfold solar system. She is Neptune ( makara ) incarnate within the schemes synthesised by saturn. She is the representative of the love petals within synthesising seven schemes. She thus links Neptune and Jupiter
Sirius performs a similar function on cosmic levels linking the Pleidean energy of the cosmic astral with it's higher correspondence , cosmic buddhi via the causal bodies of the solar logoi.
Ok this is all deep stuff and needs much analysis but there are a few ideas which I think contain useful directions to explore.
On the trail,
Bruce
Cont:
A solar Logos uses for His energy centres the planetary schemes, each of which embodies a peculiar type of energy, and each of which, therefore, vibrates to the key of the logoic solar Angel, of which the human solar Angel is a dim reflection. It is interesting here to note that as the human solar Angel is a unity, manifesting through three tiers of petals, the logoic correspondence is even more interesting, for that great cosmic Entity demonstrates on the cosmic mental plane as a triple flame working through seven tiers of petals, and it is the energy from these seven circles of energy which pulsates through the medium of any scheme. All this is hidden in the mystery of the ONE ABOUT WHOM NAUGHT MAY BE SAID, and it is not possible for men to solve it,-the truth being obscure to even the highest Dhyan Chohan of our system.
The energy centres of the solar Logos are themselves in the form of vast lotuses or wheels, at the centre of which lies hidden that central cosmic Life, we call a planetary Logos. He is the meeting place for two types of force, spiritual or logoic, which reaches Him (via the logoic Lotus on cosmic mental planes) from the seven Rishis of the Great Bear on Their own plane, and, secondly, of buddhic force, which is transmitted via the Seven Sisters or the Pleiades from a constellation called the Dragon in some books, and from which has come the appellation "The Dragon of Wisdom."
A third type of energy is added and, therefore, can be detected in these centres, that of manasic type. This reaches the logoic centres via the star Sirius, and is transmitted from that constellation which (as earlier I have hinted) must remain obscure at present. These three great streams of energy form the total manifestation of a logoic centre. This is known to us as a planetary scheme. Tcf 1163
It would seem to me that the seven rishis on their own plane refers to the cosmic monadic, expressed through the cosmic atmic.
Interesting about the triple flame and seven tiers of petals. We know our causal bodies have only three tiers - perhaps relating to the three higher subplanes of the mental plane which are solarised. Might this mean that the Solar Logos has solarised all seven of the cosmic mental planes ( his causal body is on the first subplane after all )?
B
Dear Leo Probers,
Just a thought about revolution.
1. If Sirius and our Sun have independent orbits around the Central Spiritual
Sun (aka Alcyone), then the Sun cannot revolve around Sirius.
2. If Sirius and the Sun are part of a sevenfold system (the entirety of
which revolves around Alcyone in more or less the same orbital period), then
the Sun *can* revolve around Sirius. While ist *can*, this is surely not to
say that it *does*.
Love to all,
From Michael in response to Stephen:
Dear Brothers,
This will probably be my last one. My obligations here are just too
onerous and I am burning the midnight oil just to reply. In blue, below, as usual.
I can only reply briefly
LP.'s -
Carefully constructed and well chosen words M. which I am in full accord.
Correct me if I am wrong but according to my present understanding you do not
hypothetically entertain the notion of the other six solar Logoi passing
through the 12 constellations of the zodiac - in their own ray period - as
does our 4th order Logos as He revolves around the CCS.
Michael: This opens up a great question. What is a Solar Logos? I adhere, as you do, to the importance of the 250,000 cycle which you have so often and wisely emphasized. I differ in relation to the orbital period of Sirius, which given its mere 8 light years from Sol, is much more likely to be in the neighborhood of 250,000 (rather than 500,000 years). I think astronomy will show that Sirius and Sol are just too close to have orbital periods which are so discrepant. Nevertheless, I see why you have chosen the numbers, and think 5 and all multiples of it are very closely related to Sirius.
As we all
theoretically know or have at least read, [according to DK] our sun in
250,000 years orbits the CCS spending 25,000 years [approximately] in each
sign and 5,000 years between signs as it does so.
Michael: As stated (and buried) in our lengthy correspondence, in order to orbit the Pleiades, Sol would have to pass outside our zodiac of constellations altogether. The Pleiades are about 410 ly, whereas the Stars of Taurus and Gemini are very close. From a position on the other side of the Pleiades, an observer would be in both the sign Taurus and Scorpio at the same time—and both the sign Gemini and Sagittarius at the same time.
I think a map, outlining the relative distances of all zodiacal constellations and all super-constellations (Orion, Draco, etc.) would make this clear.
There is even a possibility, that the ten/seven super-constellations revolve vertically rather than horizontally—just as is found in the contrast between Rays and Planes.
As you know M., I have specifically linked this period of orbital revolution
to the [posited] 4th ray Monad of our solar Logos as being the source of the
mathematical rate of vibration of the 4th great cosmic ray of Harmonisation.
Michael: With this, in itself, I have no disagreement. It is reasonable to me that our Solar Logos has a close connection to the number 4, it being a heart center—fourth chakra.
I, in "my" 'paradigmatic model' link the mathematical figures incidental to
the orbital revolutionary periods of the other six solar Logoi around the
CCS to their Monadic rays; moreover, specifically in each case I further
link these orbital figures as being the cosmic source of motion of the Seven
Michael: I can’t go into this too much, until the term Solar Logoi is defined. I have done a lot of work on that term, and find it much blinded, as is the word “system” and “constellation”.
About the monadic rays of great stars, I will think. About the monadic rays of Constellational Lords, I can only speculate
Rays and the origin or their mathematical rates of vibration.
We know from the Teachings of the Temple by Master H., that it is the CCS
that all motion is to be ultimately refered and that the Great Lodge of
Spiritual Masters is therein synthesized. The seven types of sprial-cyclic
energy we term the rays do have a definite source of originating cosmic
motion. It is the sweep of the seven solar Logoi around the CCS which is the
originating source of the "rates of vibration" of the seven Universal rays
in our cosmic system. In all most all cases the ray sources, rates of
vobration and center correlations have already been given. I strongly
suggest the entire hebdomadic "whole" of the cosmic Logoic system has been
lucidly frameworked and elucidated by the Tibetan for our edification.
Michael: I am beginning to think that the term CSS is generic. Yes, Alcyone is a CSS. So is the “Monad” of our Solar Logos. Even Sirius, may, for our local Sirian System (if such truly exists) a CSS. And certainly, the center of our Galaxy is the CSS. Also, the Pleiades, as a whole, can be considered a type of CSS.
I do not at all dispute the importance of the CSS we call Alcyone—and that much will be synthesized within the Pleiades. But what manifests through the 500 Pleiades, and is this different from what manifests through 7 or 9 of them (if Atlas and Pleione are included).
That rays and orbital cycles are closely related, I do not dispute—but I am forced to be modest in my approach, because, after all my research, I do not know enough to link the motions of the constellations which can be observed to the ray cycles given by the Tibetan.
That your brilliant work on the 15 and the 35 is indispensable, I do not dispute. Linking these figures astronomically to Antares and to Orion, is for me, however, too big a jump. I must know more astronomy before I do this. And the more that we need, is probably available right now—at least the hints are there and the new observations are probably being gathered even as we speak.
Definition of a OAWNMBS: a cosmic Logos who contains seven primary solar
Logoi as His [Laya] centers.
Michael: Well, I have spoken long about the difference between what is usually called a Cosmic Logos and what I would call the greatest of the OAWNMBSs discussed by DK. For me, the OAWNMBS (Level II) contains seven constellations and not seven solar logoi. But then, again, the important question—what, really, is a Solar Logos?
So much of our detailed discussion on these matters is buried in our correspondence.
The seven cosmic Paths of a TCF ultimately lead
to the CCS, via the [Laya] centers] of our cosmic Logos - the OAWNMBS.
These seven, five of which are clearly already given, are the extra-systemic
source of the Seven Rays. [Rule X TWM]
Michael: No problem here. I must agree that the Great Bear transmits the first ray, and (generically) Draco (and Crux) the seventh. After that, the ambiguities begin—and many are the arguments, pro and con.
Remember; [Laya] centers transmit rays! Further remember; it is the
"substance of the Paths" that is, the seven specific vibrational streams of
electrical energies of the Path/centers related to the substance of the
Planes which construct, build and form the rainbow bridges or highways in
the galaxy which transmit and step down the rays from star to sun to planet;
from cosmic plane to systemic plane to sub-plane plane etc. "Path" training,
regardless of chosen Path is all concerned with extra-planetary
Antahkarana, and later extra-systemic "building" on the Path of Higher
Evolution. The salient cosmic initiatiory task is to reproduce the forms in
consciousness that were earlier untilized by Deity in the inauguration of
and commencement of the involutionary process which set the universal worlds
into the motion of "Becoming". As one successfully builds, replicating the
process employed by Deity Itself - one ascends accordingly and in due
proporitonality to the extent of the projection. [my present understanding
in a nutshell]
Michael: I have no problem with considering the Paths of our OAWNMBS, Level II, as linked to the seven laya centers, nor do I have a problem as seeing certain constellations as related to these laya centers (and even embodying them).
BUT, orbital revolutions of suns, (and especially of constellations) must be matched against the astronomy we know.
Definition of the UNKNOWN LIFE: a cosmic Parabrahman who contains seven
cosmic Logoi [ 7
constellations] as His primary [Laya] centers.
Michael: In my letter to Bruce, I have explained that the charts on 293 and 344 TCF are incommensurate, and that a Cosmic Parabrahm is not the same as the Unknown on p.293. The Great Bear is represented by 7 triangles which are broken out of a little triangle (one of seven little triangles) within one of the seven ‘big’ circles on the Cosmic Monadic plane. The Cosmic Parabrahm is clearly above all that, and contains seven OAWNMBSs, Level II, for its centers.
Two Questions: 1). What is the CCS for "our" Parabrahman? It is not The
Pleiades for that is the CCS for our cosmic Logos. 2). What are the seven
constellations which compose His centers?
Michael: The CSS for our Parabrahm is utterly unknown, in my opinion—for a Cosmic Parabrahman is only one of seven, and seven more charts such as the one found on p. 344, would have to be drawn.
BUT—for and within our local OAWNMBS, the Pleiades (all 500) would be the CSS—a kind of all-inclusive head center.
The problem above, as I see it, is to persist thinking of the “Unknown” as equivalent to the Cosmic Parabrahm. They are essentially different. The “Unknown” of p.293 is, to me, a chakra within a Cosmic Parabrahm.
best thoughts to all,
S
Michael: Now I know there will be question and challenges to these points of view. If only I could continue. Perhaps, compulsion will keep me going, but it would be only at the expense of my responsibilities here.
Michael: Whatever, my differences with points of view expressed by SDP and BL, I can only say that I am arriving at these differences honestly. It is my best thought to date. I want to keep my levels straight and my magnitudes in order. I know I shall not in this life know the whole truth on these matters—perhaps they are secrets of certain higher initiations—I think so. But I am satisfied that I am thinking carefully on these matters. I think I see the differing points of view. I have simply expressed my own—offering at the same time my respect and appreciation for those who, honestly, and according to their best thought, arrive at conclusions other than my own.
Love to all,
Michael
Bruce ( Black) & Michael ( blue ) & Bruce ( orange ) Correspondence:
Dear Michael & Group,
I have tried to more clearly outline the key components of the discussion and the different views below in orange.
Michael: I must amend the sequence according to my point of view: Planetary Logos, Solar Logos, Cosmic Logos (Constellational), Super-Cosmic Logos (Super-Constellational), and then, and only then the Cosmic Parabrahm of TCF p. 344. The Unknown, for me, is not the Cosmic Parabrahman.
The Cosmic Logos is what Michael also calls OAWNBUS - level 1, a
constellation Logos. DK often uses the term OAWNBUS without discriminating
between the Unknown and a Cosmic Logos. The Unknown is Michael's OAWNBUS -
level 2.
Michael: Correction, please, on this point. The Level II OAWNMBS is the Unknown, but is not a Cosmic Parabrahm which has OAWNMBSs Level II; for its centers—check TCF 344.
Well Michael, I hear you but I do not understand you. Perhaps I am missing something but each time you say ‘check TCF 344 and check TCF 293’ I do and come up with the same answer. We are ‘seeing’ different things and that sight is causing a somewhat different analysis of the whole system. I read all the letters between you and Stephen and throughout all your correspondence I could not find a clear elucidation of this point.
So , the air is thin up there and I made need extra oxygen so bear with me.
When you get time I would appreciate you walking with me over the pass.
For the sake of clarity let me outline my reading of the charts step by step.
Chart on page 344
On the cosmic monadic plane are the words:
“The Seven Cosmic Logoi each containing seven Solar Logoi.”
I read this as follows. Each circle is a Cosmic Logoi which contains seven solar logoi.
Therefore each cosmic logos IS a constellation of seven suns. Therefore SSSOWIO IS a Cosmic Logos.
Now , were we to seek for a being who has as his centers, seven cosmic logoi ( ie seven constellations ) then we would check the plane above and lo! the cosmic parabrahm sits there in ineffable unknowingness.
This is the use of Occam’s razor – the simplest answer is true unless there are compelling reasons for it not to be so.
As I understand your reasoning, you think there is a blinded level between cosmic logos ( constellation ) and Parabrahm – a being which has centers which each contain seven cosmic logoi. Furthermore you think that this super-constellational logos is represented by one of the circles on the cosmic monadic plane ( despite the fact that the words clearly do not say that )
You quote two reasons for this extra level.
The first is that one of the triangles on the cosmic monadic plane appears to ‘break out’ into seven triangles on the cosmic buddhic plane which lie above the words
“the seven rishis of the Great Bear being the centers in a solar Logos”
As I understand it, you interpret this as follows:
If the seven stars of the Gt bear are located on the buddhic plane and form centers in a Solar Logos, therefore the term Solar Logos here is a blind for ‘constellational logos’ therefore the seven triangles in a cosmic logos on the monadic plane are actually CONSTELLATIONS and therefore there must be an extra level you call ‘super-constellational logos’ or OAWNBUS level 2.
Please follow this reasoning through carefully to see whether I have understood this point from your perspective.
My view is that this position is unnecessary. If we assume that the triangle on the cosmic monadic plane IS what it says it is ie the monad of a solar logos, then the centers of a solar logos upon the cosmic buddhic plane are just that – triadal centers. They have a direct correspondence to the planetary chains (lesser heavenly men ) which are centers within planetary schemes ( heavenly men ) . We call these chains after the planets just as these triadal centers within a solar logos are called after the prototypical seven head centers of the Gt Bear. These centers are triadal reflections of the monads of the Gt bear not the monads themselves. The direct analogy between a solar logos and a human being is this. A human monad is sourced ( although it’s origin is higher ) from within a planetary scheme center ( a monadic level ashram ). It expresses triadally through a planetary chain center ( a buddhic level ashram or lesser heavenly man ) . It expresses in a personality sense on some globe, rootrace and so on. Can a planetary chain therefore be
called a ‘centre within a human being’. Well, I think it can, if by human being you mean human monad. Remember we are talking about consciousness and life here not ‘things’.
A human monad is ‘free’ of the limitations of chain ring pass nots.
Anyway, one does not have to agree with the speculations in the last paragraph to take the view that the seven rishis that are the centers in a Solar Logos are lesser entities ( in consciousness, albeit cosmic triadal consciousness ) than the monads of the stars of the Great Bear. In the same way when we speak of a human we may be speaking of monad or soul or personality, thus the rishis are the soul or sentient nature of these great stars.
OK so now the second reason you quote:
My understanding of this is more sketchy but let me have a go.
You refer to the chart on page 293 or cosmic fire which goes as follows ( I have left out the time component cos it screws up the chart in Word )
TABULATlON II
EVOLUTION IN THE UNIVERSE
Entity Vehicle Centre Space
The Unknown 7 constellations. cosmic Logos 5 cosmic planes.
A cosmic Logos 7 solar systems solar Logos 4 cosmic planes.
A solar Logos 7 planetary schemes Heavenly Man 3 cosmic planes.
A Heavenly Man 7 planetary chains Chohans and groups 2 cosmic planes.
A Man 7 etheric centrcs a Principle 1 cosmic plane
As I understand it you are saying that ‘the unknown’ entity at the top of the chart is not a cosmic parabrahm but that a cosmic parabrahm would express through seven ‘unknowns’. Again, I see no need for this.
A cosmic logos is clearly spelled out as having for his centers , seven solar logoi. This is the same delineation as in the chart on 344. A cosmic logoi is therefore one of those circles on the cosmic monadic plane. Therefore an ‘unknown’ is He who has cosmic logoi as centers. Therefore the ‘unknown’ IS the cosmic parabrahm.
This seems so clear so please, please, please point out for me how and why you have a different reading.
The only reason I can think that you could conclude that there needs to be another entity is because of the space ie the number of planes mentioned for each entity. One could conclude that there are not enough planes for a cosmic parabrahm to ‘express’ on – ie He would need six or seven planes rather than the five planes given for the ‘unknown’
However I do not think this argument is valid.
A Solar Logos is expressing on three cosmic planes which does not mean His delineation is limited to them – infact monadically speaking he encompasses six and arguable expresses on four or five if you include the triadal centers. The Unknown could have cosmic logoic centers on the cosmic monadic plane but the ‘space’ through which he manifests could still be limited to five cosmic planes. His field of manifestation in other words.
On creating a compliation on the cosmic logoi I did find one other quote which might at first glance support your position. Here it is.
The wheel of the universe, or the sumtotal of all stars and starry systems.
A cosmic wheel, or a group of seven constellations. These are grouped according to:
a. Their magnitude,
b. Their vibration,
c. Their colour,
d. Their influence upon each other.
These cosmic wheels, according to the esoteric books, are divided into forty-nine groups, each comprising millions of septenary constellations.For purposes of study by the Adepts, they are each known by a symbol, and these forty-nine symbols embody all that can be apprehended anent the size, magnitude, quality, vibratory activity, and objective of those great forms through which an Existence is experiencing. The Chohans of high degree know the forty-nine sounds which give the quality of the consciousness aspect of these great Beings Who are as far removed from the consciousness of our solar Logos as the consciousness of man is removed from that of a crystal. The knowledge thus appreciated by the Chohans is naturally but theoretical and conveys only to their relatively limited consciousness the general nature of the group of constellations, and the force occasionally emanating from them which has at times to be taken into calculation. For instance, the interest awakened in the public mind lately by the giant star Betelgeuse in the constellation of Orion is due to the fact that at this particular time there has been an interplay of force between our tiny system and this giant one, and communication between the two informing Existences.
Ok so here we have a delineation from Universe to cosmic wheel. The cosmic wheel is made up of seven constellations, each of which comprises ‘millions’ of constellations. So here we have a constellation that is in fact many constellation but I do not think that you are correlating a cosmic parabrahm to a ‘universe’. Surely there are many more levels to be explored before we get to the true ‘universal’. Infact one could propose another chart where the chart on page 344 was considered just the super-cosmic physical plane.
The same pattern exists in this quote as does in the chart, as indeed occurs within a scheme. Seven wheels each with seven components.
The bottom line for me is that we are told that the components of the seven wheels of cosmic logoi on the cosmic monadic plane are made up of SOLAR LOGOI ie stars. I see no good reason to interpret this as a blind for constellations.
Once again, I have no doubt that you do have good reasons for your conclusions and I respect the prolonged study and dialogue that you have put into your view. I would just appreciate a more detailed outline of the reasoning process
So, Michael so I know you have other things on the go and don’t expect an immediate answer but am bookmarking this for a later discussion.
Best
Bruce